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What do you think? Are the two compatible? I'm asking both as a player and an aspiring (someday) luthier.

After lots of tests, I've been diagnosed with bilateral ulnar neuropathy (read: "cubital tunnel syndrome"-- ulnar nerve = cubital, radial nerve = carpal) and have an MRI scheduled at the end of this month on both shoulders to determine the extent of nerve involvement there. (This is due to typing and mouse clicking too much at work.) I've actually lost muscle strength in both hands because of it and it's now noticeably affecting my playing. I'm certain it won't be long before the days of d-28's, wide necks, and medium gauge strings are completely behind me.

So, has anyone ever tried to build an ergonomic acoustic guitar? I've done a cursory internet search and haven't found much of anything that is of any help. I'd love to hear any and all opinions, thoughts, ideas, or even similar stories so I'll know I'm not alone. Thank you ALL in advance!

John Creech

well there's a number of things John.
1. The beveled arm rest (Ryan, and others)
2. tapered body (Cumpiano)
3. Shorter scale
4. neck profile that fits your hand
4. Detune a half step (Phil Keaggy) for less tension on the strings
5. Silk and steel strings

I'm sure others will chime in. All will affect the playability, tone, and feel of the instrument. You really need a custom instrument. If not, #4 & or #5 may give some relief

[QUOTE=Terry Stowell] You really need a custom instrument. If not, #4 & or #5 may give some relief[/QUOTE]

Fortunately, I do have one... Our friend Lance (Thanks again Lance!!!!) built it for me. It's been the only one I can play for the last month or so. Even so, the pain has only gotten worse.

That said, those are all great suggestions, and if I ever get to the point in building instruments that I have the skills to experiment with design, I'm sure gonna include those.

If that was the one at ASIA las year, it's really nice, I got to play it. Get the best medical help, and lots o' prayer John. I would really miss being able to play. It's such a gift.

Having the custom instrument may not meet the ergonomics requirement your body is demanding. The features that I mention may make a substantial difference, but at some added cost. The tapered body may help with the shoulder. The beveled arm rest may assist with blood flow below your forearm and assist with proper alignment through the upper arm, the shorter scale and neck profile will affect your wrist, as will the string tension issues. In this respect you still have lots of room to experiment.

God bless you in this whole deal. Feel free to PM about your progress, My wife and I will pray for you.

Take care and let us know how you make out!

Hi John

18 months ago I thought I had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and had the tests done.

Ended up I've got Multi Focal Motor Neuropathy with Conduction Block.(jeez what a mouthful)

Different cause but basically similar end results to what you have.

I've ended up with very little strength in my left hand.

Sounds like the MRI is going to look for narrowing of the Brachial Plexus where your nerves head down into your arms.

I've got a guitarist friend here in Oz who had a similar thing to you. Surgeons wanted to operate. He said 'no way' and ended up having some acupuncture done (of which he was very sceptical)and it fixed it in around three months.

I guess what I'm saying is get the best medical advice you can but keep an open mind to alternative medicines. I'm about to get some acupuncture done just to see if I can squeeze a bit more movement out of the digits.

And keep playing! It's great physio even if the old fingers aren't really doing what you want 'em to.

Above all be positive. The days of the D28 and medium strings aren't behind you yet.

I'd really like to know how you get on with all this so feel free to send a PM and I'll give any support I can.

Cheers

Bob

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Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

John, check out Charles Fox's Ergo guitar. It's supposed to be an ergonomically designed guitar. The bad news is, it starts at around 17K.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Is the tapered body the same thing as a wedge guitar (ala Manzer)? I built a wedged jumbo for a friend with shoulder problems and it made a big difference.

Tapered body == Manzer's Wedge guitar, yes.

As for alternative therapies, don't discount them, but frankly, unless there's evidence to the contrary (published, proper evidence), I'd be inclined to say that attributing healing to the acupunture is a post hoc, propter hoc logical fallacy; just because one followed the other does not mean much. Acupunture's been found to be fairly effective in treating pain in some studies, but muscle weakness implies a more complex set of problems. Add the fact that most 'alternative medicine' is unsubstantiated quackery that can do a great deal of harm - both direct and indirect; homeopathy's dead safe, f'r instance, because it's no more effective than a placebo, but if it prevents proper treatment (think: 'homeopathic malaria prophylaxis') using proven methods it's a bad, bad thing. Besides, surgery, done well, can be very effective, and sort things out quite surprisingly swiftly.

Sorry about the rant there, but I've got strong opinions on the value of most of the alternative treatment community...

The "wedge" is a Linda Manzer development and Grit Laskin developed the arm and rib rests to address just some the issues you have raised that were raised by some of his classical playing customers. Search both of their sites and you will get a bit of info on that. Cumpiano does talk about the Wedge on his site also. Tony Karol, Josh House and some others have posted on this forum on arm and rib rests.

Good luck nad get well!

Shane

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Canada

Thank you all for the replies, prayers, and support... I go for my MRI on the 19th and have a show for about 400 people coming up on the 30th... I'll be sure to write back and let you all know how everything turns out.

Given time and rest most ailments will heal if you HAVE A POSITIVE ATTITUDE! Don't do anything that hurts for at least 3 months, (no work). Take anti-inflammatorys 3 times a day for 10 days. Get a daily dose of anti-oxidants including omega 3-6-9. Drink lots of water. Exercise. Eat a diet for type 2 diabetes, (less sugar). HAVE A POSITIVE ATTITUDE.

Smile inside your mind.

I survived serious knee pain, bulging disk, pinched sciatic nerve, and tennis elbow (ouch!). I had to quit work for 3 months on two occasions.

Listen to your body, it's telling you to stop doing whatever is hurting you.

Kurt

John, listen to the wisdom here, you'll definitely benefit from it, we too often think that we are still young and we pay for it!

Keep positive, my prayers with ya

As bob conner was saying - there are alternatives to the western medicine approaches that are completely effective in curing, or at least allaying these afflictions that are becoming more common in North America {and other spoiled and bloated cultures}.
You often hear of how there is little to no incidences of certain disease, in a certain culture, country, or geographical area, meanwhile it will be rampant in others.
Now obviously these particular afflictions are tending to run down cultural lines, and can be traced in many instances to dietary habits, and imbalances caused by nutritional deficiencies or other factors{sometimes environmental}.
I have been wanting to practice luthiery for ages, but its not been my only interest these last couple decades. I have studied alternative medicine, {spagyric and herbal medicine in particular} as much as possible.
There has been alot of suggestion that the nutritional deficiency of B vitamine complex
{specifically 6 and 12 but subjects have known to benefit from the entire B group} as leading contributors to carpal tunnel and related syndromes.
It has been proven that B complex vitamines help maintain elasticity in sinews/tendons.
I myself have had severe numbness and tingling in my hands during guitar playing, and have had the symptoms subside with a double daily dose of B complex {good quality} and vitamine C{ester type}.
I have traced a B vitamine deficiency in myself to copious coffee and cigarette consumption.
Alot of people dismiss vitamine {nutritional subsidy therapy} because of the usage of poor quality vitamines - which are poorly assimilated by the body or hardly at all absorbed.
I myself have had very good results -
Although after correcting deficiencies w/vitamines> it is a good idea to correct dietary habits, to continue nourishing these imbalances with food sources rich in the paricular vitamines needed.
And as bob conner has stated there are other non-western therapies that are extremely beneficial as well, in short I think that when there is little help, or no other recourse in western medicine except surgery, its time to look at non western or alternative therapies.
They are quite often the ticket! Im not dismissing Western medicine which had more than a few virtues - no doubt. I just think it has missed the boat in many ways by dismissing many ancient and culturally specific remedies, with predjudice, and is only now catching up in these areas.
Good luck with your problem.
Cheers
Charliewoodcharliewood38975.6520138889

I've played a few wedge guitars and I am completely sold on the idea. The guitar seems to disappear in your lap. These instruments are the most comfortable to play that I have every tried. The edge that used to dig into my right arm is gone. My current project is a wedge.

For left hand soreness, I have found that a thicker neck makes a big difference. Once I switched to a thicker neck I could play for hours without any wrist pain.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I have found that a thicker neck makes a big difference. Once I switched to a thicker neck I could play for hours without any wrist pain. [/QUOTE]
I'm glad you mentioned that, Mike. The shallow necks that have been all the rage for the last 20 - 30 years make my wrist hurt and my hand cramp. The substantial, rounded necks don't. The box isn't the only place where ergonomics are important.

Mike and Carlton, now that is interesting, i thought it was the opposite? I recently took some meat off the neck of no 2 for Mom but gladly, i still have a round neck that's a bit beefier than what's seen regularly, i think i won't take any more meat off of it then, i think it is pretty comfortable as it is.

Thanks

Serge

Serge,

I wouldn't worry about it. One thing doesn't work for everyone. Besides, I'm assuming that you shaved the neck down because she told you it was too chunky.

My beef is that shallow necks have been the "norm" for so long that people don't remember or haven't even tried a more substantial profile. In fact, it's really hard to find a guitar hanging in a store by a nice, round neck. It's like the '70s and '80s, when it was hard to find any body style other than a dreadnaught. It's the old retail shuffle...stores only stock one style, because that's all people will buy; and people only buy one style because that's all they can find in the stores.

I'll agree with that Carlton, customer then created a need for the same thing over and over. The stores are indeed responsible for pushing a "norm" in terms of playability. Sigh...

I had two repair customers who both had guitars with shallow necks from the same builder, and both were having left hand problems. One tried deepening the neck on his with some tape (well, lots of tape) and it helped, so I ended up adding some wood on, which was _not_ fun. It worked, though, and I did the other one as well, with the same good results. These were, BTW, 11 and 13 string classicals, so we're talking wide and well as thick.

I'm not surprised, Alan. Whether you play "thumb over" or "thumb behind," it's just more comfortable in the long run if you've got some support for the flesh between your thumb and first finger.